You grew up an Evertonian. Why did you decide to join Liverpool?
I was 14 or 15 and desperate to earn a place on a YTS scheme. I went to Liverpool and they were a much better club to join at the time than Everton. They went the extra mile to encourage me to join and Jim Aspinall who was the local scout and somebody who’d introduced a lot of future first team players to the club, made a big fuss of me by taking me to Anfield and introducing me to Kenny Dalglish. When things like that happen and people like Kenny give you a pair of his boots that he had specially made for him when Liverpool played in the Intercontinental Cup in Tokyo, you can’t say no. They’re all special memories. Even my dad, who was a staunch Evertonian, came away from Anfield saying, ‘This is the place for you to go.’ Robbie, Carra and Michael Owen were also boyhood Evertonians before signing for Liverpool so it shows you what a great job Liverpool were doing.
Did the opportunity to sign for Everton ever arise?
I’d played for Liverpool Schoolboys down at Penny Lane and scouts were there watching players every single week. There was interest from far and wide. Both Manchester clubs offered me a chance to go there but I was a home bird and never wanted to leave my parents. Because I was very small and very, very thin, in a bizarre way it made me stand out so there was interest from other clubs as well. I only ever wanted to stay on Merseyside and although Everton asked me to go there, it was a non-starter because they just weren’t as impressive as Liverpool.
Were there any other players in the Liverpool system that were expected to make it but didn’t?
The standard was very high at Liverpool and when I joined, there were quite a few players regarded more highly than me. Two lads Joey Murray and Steve McVey were already playing for England under-16s. I’d been for trials as well but got nowhere near the team because I was tiny. They were big strong lads – virtually men and fantastic footballers. Like anything, I got the breaks, steered clear of injuries and had a bit of luck when I needed it. That can sometimes be the difference.
Who was the first person to call you Shaggy?
That came much later on when I was in the first team. Barry Venison used to call me ‘Muscles.’ Before that, nobody even called me Macca because Steve McMahon was already there and known as Macca. There was no way I could become Macca as well with Steve about.
How do you evaluate Graeme Souness’ time as Liverpool manager?
Souey was maligned by seemingly everybody, but he did a lot for me as a manager. I know a lot of people say it, but it’s probably true that he tried to change things around too quickly. He had to make changes and was doing a lot of things right but going about it maybe in a hurried way that meant he overlooked problems that could arise as a result of the changes. He’d probably agree with that if you asked him because I’m a friend of his now and I know how he feels.
To a certain extent, he was probably ahead of his time, but at the time, everything he did was questioned. He moved us down to Melwood, ‘Ah that’s a mistake.’ He brought in dietary requirements for the players, ‘Why are you doing that?’ Today, every club has a daily training base. Today, every club employs a dietician.
The one mistake that he did make was move a lot of the experienced pros on a year ahead of their time. Because we had a lot of injury problems and a lot of kids came in before they were totally ready at a time when we needed leadership. There were other circumstances like his illness ahead of the cup final and speaking to the Sun newspaper, which was misguided.
I think he realises now that he made one or two many mistakes in a short space of time and this has unfortunately sullied his reputation as one of Liverpool’s greatest players. With hindsight, he probably regrets a lot of the things he did at Liverpool.
How quickly did you become friends with Robbie Fowler?
I was initially a good mate with Mike Marsh who was a Kirkby lad like me. Before Robbie was in the first team, I’d seen him train, play and score lots of goals in the youth teams and the reserves but didn’t know much about him as a person. Once Robbie came into the first team, we became friends very quickly. He was and still is very similar in character and person to me with similar backgrounds and interests. Our fathers had the same interests, so he was very easy to be around.
You received the man-of-the-match award for your performances in both the 1992 FA Cup Final and the 1995 League Cup Final. Which game did you play better in?
That’s difficult to say because we won both games. I injured my back in ’92 and couldn’t walk afterwards. I scored two in 95 and it’s always nice to score and win. Maybe the FA Cup was slightly better because the FA Cup is a more prestigious competition – it was also my first medal and I was extremely young. I’d literally just come back from a dislocated knee sustained in the semi-final and I had to be rushed back because Barnesy was struggling too.
When Roy Evans became manager, he changed the formation from 4-4-2 to 3-5-2. How did the players take to it?
It was a bold decision because 4-4-2 was the Liverpool way. But I think Roy realised the team needed to be flexible because of the way football was changing. Managers were becoming more obsessed by tactics and I think Roy wanted to make sure we could adapt formations in different situations. Sometimes if teams are overrunning you you need to be able to change on a whim.
Roy knew the personnel we had and understood that we had two or three players that would shine as wing-backs – a key position if you’re going to play that way because they contribute going forwards and going back.
The change in formation also allowed you to play more centrally didn’t it?
Many people called it a free role but it only becomes a free role when you’ve got the right personnel around you. A lot of credit in our attacking play should also go to Jamie Redknapp, John Barnes and Michael Thomas. They gave me the option of being able to play freely because they had such a great positional sense.
How did you deal with being man-marked?
Well I know that only became an issue when we didn’t win. There were plenty of games when I was man-marked and we won and nobody said a thing about it. But when we drew or lost, they’d say they’d stopped me playing and therefore Liverpool playing. I found it quite strange that opposing managers and players would concentrate on a player rather than the ball. There was times when the ball was two yards away from a defender and they’d leave the ball and focus on stopping me instead. I remember we drew with Sheffield Wednesday and everybody was going on about what a great job Peter Atherton did on me. There were other players that had good games against me but it wasn’t mentioned because we’d won the game. Because Wednesday got a draw, Atherton got all kinds of praise.
If anything, being man-marked wasn’t a compliment – it was more frustrating. It got to the stage where players wouldn’t pass the ball to me because it looked like I was marked. When really, they should have passed it and allow me to try and beat the marker or get him booked, leaving him on the back foot.
How good a player was Rob Jones?
Had it not been for injury, he’d have earned more than 100 England caps, I’m sure of that. Gary Neville would have been under more pressure over the years. Trigger was a great attacking full back, superb on the ball, a fine cross. It was sad that he had to retire so early because I’m sure he’d have become a Liverpool legend. When I left Liverpool at 27, he had to retire the same summer and slowly slip away. It shows you the contrasting lives of footballers because he could have achieved everything in the game. He was really that good.
You played in Euro 96. Why didn’t England win it?
Well we were very unlucky to go out to Germany because we should have beaten them. I’m sure we’d have also beaten the Czech’s in the final. On the other hand, we were certainly the second best against the Spanish who scored a goal that should have been counted but wasn’t. Then we beat them on penalties. Before that, we were also quite fortunate to beat Scotland after David Seaman saved Gary Mac’s pen. At the end of the day, we were fortunate to beat Spain and unfortunate to lose to the Germans. It’s not something I sit there thinking, ‘Ah we should have done this…we should have done that,’ because the luck probably evened itself out. That’s football.
Do you think Liverpool should have won the title in 1996/97?
Whoever wins the title deserves it so no, we shouldn’t have. It’s funny now how people remember that season quite fondly. Roy Evans got absolutely slaughtered by some for playing attacking football, which got us into some problems defensively. But I’ll always back Roy because he was brilliant with the players and defended us through thick and thin. Everybody respected him.
These days, I get people, and I’m sure Roy does as well, coming up, saying ‘That was a great Liverpool side that.’ The same people weren’t saying it at the time. Roy Evans was a great manager and slightly unlucky at times. If he was managing nowadays and finished third or fourth every season like he did then, it would be good enough to get in the Champions League and would be regarded as an achievement.
What went through your mind when you received the ball in the 1997 UEFA Cup against Celtic and was it your favourite Liverpool goal?
I remember a forward or a midfielder came to tackle me way behind the half way line and his body shape was all wrong. So I beat him and realised there was acres and acres of space. That made my mind up for me that I was going to have a run. Nobody really tried to tackle me so by the time I got to the box I realised there was an opportunity to shoot. Rather than thinking, ‘I’m going to run here and score,’ it was circumstance that everything opened up.
My best goal would have to be one that meant something. I could never choose a goal in a game that we lost. The ’95 League Cup Final goals were special to me.
Before you signed for Real Madrid, how close were you to moving to Barcelona?
It was 12 months before and it was never really that close. Liverpool had agreed a fee with them for me and told me I could speak. There was only a conversation over the phone and we were a million miles away from each other in terms of what the club wanted and what I wanted. I was due to go on holiday to Majorca and because there were no direct flights to Palma the day I wanted to go, I flew via Barcelona. The press caught wind of it, put two and two together and came up with everything. When I arrived back home, there was a furore but really, it was a load of lies. I never wanted to go to Barcelona and never met anybody from the club in person.
Eventually, you joined Real Madrid. How did Spain change you as a person?
First of all, the football was completely different and the culture around it is different as well. You’re playing at nine or ten at night and the sights, sounds and smells around the stadiums are different to England. Then country itself is again, different, and Spain is a very family orientated land. It was about embracing different experiences because I didn’t know the language and Liverpool was the only club I’d ever been at, Real Madrid probably made me mature a bit as a person. It was tough at first and I can understand why English players find it difficult to settle abroad mainly because we aren’t encouraged to learn different languages in this country from an early age.
Who was your best mate at Real Madrid?
Initially, I got on with Clarence Seedorf and Christian Karembeu, mainly because they spoke English. You find solace in anybody that can speak the same language as you. As time progressed and my Spanish got better, I’d like to think I got on with all the players. I still speak to Santiago Solari and Luis Figo – they’re great mates.
Where does Zinedine Zidane rank amongst the greatest players of all time?
To be honest, he really struggled in his first year at Real Madrid. But then he scored that goal in the European Cup Final. It was like the weight of the world was lifted off his shoulders. For the other three or four years, he was truly brilliant and became the one of the best if not the best player I’ve ever played with. I can’t compare him to Pele, Maradona, George Best or Cruyff because I never played with them but in the modern era, he’s probably the best.
You retired in 2005 after a spell at Manchester City. Have you considered management?
I took my first coaching badge last year in case I fancied it in the future. Ten or 15 years ago, it would have been attractive to an ex-footballer like me, but now management a very difficult job to hold down. You lose two games, you get slaughtered and can’t go out for a meal with the wife because everybody has an opinion who should and shouldn’t be playing. Unless you have lots and lots of money to spend, it’s even more difficult. I spoke to Alan Shearer last week about Newcastle and a genuinely sympathised with him. When your hands are tied financially and you can’t get rid of players that aren’t good enough, it reflects badly on yourself. My mind fluctuates because sometimes I think that I’d like to give it a go, then other times you see the criticism that the managers get and it puts me off. Eighteen months ago, Zola at West Ham was the next big thing and being linked with the Chelsea job. Now, after a bad injury list and a couple of retirements to key players, he’s lost job at West Ham. There is also a dearth of young English managers – good managers like Alan Curbishley and Gareth Southgate who want to get in at the right club – but can’t. Maybe in a year’s time, I’ll feel differently.
